• Serial Numbers Office

Greeley, PA – Auto-Ordnance is proud to announce the new TIG series Thompson, available in Janu. Thompson Serial Numbers - posted in Thompson Submachine Gun Message Board: Gentlemen, Can any one help me with the answers to a few questions? Can anyone confirm that.

Hey Limey: Good to see you back on the Forum! Don't count on the SRS online service re-appearing anytime soon. Charlie Pate bailed out of the operation last year and the guy now running it has apparently determined that the online lookup feature was not something he wanted to continue. I hope he resurrects it, but my sources tell me that is unlikely. The next best sources are the published serial number books that SRS founder Frank Mallory sold years ago. However, I just consulted the 4 volumes in my library and I see that there are no automatic weapons listed there.

Even if the service was still available the chances of a hit on it are very, very slim. I think that for the time being you are not going to be able to find out anything about your TSMG's service history. For the Model of 1921 TSMG around 15,000 or so serials are listed in 'Thompson: The American Legend'. I know of no other source of info on service history, and none on the M1A1.

You might want to try the Thompson Collectors Association at PO Box 8710, Newark, Ohio, 43055 USA. Sorry I could not be of more assistance.

Regards, Charlie Flick. Lloyd, AFAIK there is no comprhensive list of serial number/month/year for the Thompson M1/M1A1 submamachineguns. About the best you can hope for is to extrapolate an approximate date of manufacture based on production figures. Here's what Frank Iannamico has to say about it, and he's as close the M1?m1A1 TSMG guru as you can get. Per Frank's American Thunder II, Savage Arms made an estimated total of 722,794 M1 and M1A1 TSMGs, while A-O Bridgeport made another (estimated) 110,602 M1 and M1A1 TSMGs, for an approximate total of 833, 400.

Discounting Savage's last production M1A1, s/n 1,244,194, the highest s/n recorded 'was in the 870,000 range.' 265.) I suppose you could try to date it based on its features, but even in-theater weapons underwent repairs and aprts were replaced willy-nilly. (Remember too, US martial firearms typically only carry the serial once, so it's not always as easy as looking at a K98k Mauser and saying 'this part is not original to it as from-the-factory.' ) Your best bet might be to ask Frank directly.

He has a web site initially intended for the TSMG (but it's grown substantially since its inception.) His web site is www.machinegunbooks.com You'll need to create an account in order to post (it's free) but Frank, his son Nick, and a host of other Thompson RKIs can probably give you a better feel for where in that two-year window your Thompson was produced. Lloyd, AFAIK there is no comprhensive list of serial number/month/year for the Thompson M1/M1A1 submamachineguns.

About the best you can hope for is to extrapolate an approximate date of manufacture based on production figures. Here's what Frank Iannamico has to say about it, and he's as close the M1?m1A1 TSMG guru as you can get. Per Frank's American Thunder II, Savage Arms made an estimated total of 722,794 M1 and M1A1 TSMGs, while A-O Bridgeport made another (estimated) 110,602 M1 and M1A1 TSMGs, for an approximate total of 833, 400. Discounting Savage's last production M1A1, s/n 1,244,194, the highest s/n recorded 'was in the 870,000 range.' 265.) I suppose you could try to date it based on its features, but even in-theater weapons underwent repairs and aprts were replaced willy-nilly. (Remember too, US martial firearms typically only carry the serial once, so it's not always as easy as looking at a K98k Mauser and saying 'this part is not original to it as from-the-factory.'

) Your best bet might be to ask Frank directly. He has a web site initially intended for the TSMG (but it's grown substantially since its inception.) His web site is www.machinegunbooks.com You'll need to create an account in order to post (it's free) but Frank, his son Nick, and a host of other Thompson RKIs can probably give you a better feel for where in that two-year window your Thompson was produced. HTH Mine is a mint/nos unissued m1 with 13. serial number by Auto ordernance,Would that put it lower than a savage one?Being not up on these i to would like more info. Cheers, Dave.

Yes, absolutely!!!!! Great value for its price!!!I'll second Johan's recommendation of American Thunder II. Without a doubt, it is the most definitive work done to date on the military Thompson submachineguns.the '28 and M1/M1A1, and not the Colt '21s. IMHO, you could equate ATII's examination of the military 1928 and M1 TSMGs to Helmer's and HIll's works on the Colt 1921 TSMGs. The small 'S' does indeed represnt a part made by Savage, and the 'square S' (looks more like a '5') represents Savage-Stevens' manufacture. The little 'S' you refer to 'near the mag well'.is it on the underside of the receiver, on the nose of it, just aft of the grip mount slot?

For the lower/trigger group frame the Savage-produced ones have 'FULL AUTO' written in two lines, while on the Bridgeport lowers it's marked in all on one line. Something else noted in ATII is thatthe Savage M1 TSMGs had 'US Property' markled in two lines (atop the receiver, just aft of the rear sight) and readable from the rear. Bridgeport M1 TSMGs were the exact opposite: The 'US Property' was marked in one line and was readable from the front of the gun.

Serial Numbers Office

Analysis of Serial Numbers Analysis of Serial Numbers The Colt Patent Firearms Company of Hartford Connecticut was contracted by Auto-Ordnance to manufacture the first 15000 Thompson sub-machine guns from April 1921 to May 1922. Contract was signed on 18 th August 1920. All were marked “Model of 1921” and bore a serial number which was placed in four locations on the gun on the first 1000 and then in three locations with the rest. The first commercial production gun was numbered 41 and was shipped on 31 st March 1921– numbers 1 to 40 were all considered prototypes and remain to this day in Museums in the US. Early guns were designated Model of 1919 and some were belt fed ammunition and only full automatic.

The sixth gun manufactured was serial number 46 and was the first gun consigned to Auto-Ordnance in the name of their salesman George Gordon Rorke on 2 nd April. This gun was sold to the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

During first month of production, 28 Thompson guns were shipped to the IRA via George Gordon Rorke, salesman for Auto-Ordnance. During February 1921 a group of men, all with obvious Irish surnames, ordered 50 Thompson guns from a salesman of Auto – Ordnance under the name of P.J. Gentry of New York who was a saloon-keeper on Manhattan’s Lower West Side and frontman for the IRA. On May 25 th these were delivered and within days, the guns, the men and Mr. Gentry had disappeared. In March 1921 the first Thompson guns were produced by Colt and were sent to Auto-Ordnance for hand finishing and inspection. The first two guns were shipped in the name of a Mr.

Wise, a front man for the IRA. These guns were tested by their Irish “purchasers” Sean Nunan (later to become Ireland’s Ambassador to the US!) and Laurence de Lacy (also known as Frank Williams) at the 69 th Regimental Armoury. The two guns soon left for Ireland hidden in the luggage of Irish American military officers Cronin and Dineen (later to take commissions in the Irish Army) who were sent to Ireland to train the IRA in the guns’ use.

Auto-Ordnance salesman Rorke placed and order for his Irish clients on April 5 th comprising 500 guns, 125 (x100) drums, 250 (x50) drums and 1000 (x20) box magazines. Clann na Gael, Irish fund raising organisation in the US, maintained an arms dump at La Fontaine Avenue in the Bronx, New York. Other weapons of all ages were stored here along with ammunition destined fro the struggle in Ireland.

25 Thompson guns arrived there during April 1921, another 30 on May 6 th, another 45 on May 11 th with further deliveries of 240 guns in total on 18 th, 19 th, 20 th and 21 st May. By end of May 400 Thompsons were amassed at the Bronx warehouse. A number of addresses of convenience were recorded in the meticulously kept Auto-Ordnance company records. This enabled guns to be sold to the Irish but give the impression of different business customers. While it is not certain all were IRA conduits, some were. Of interest were: American Railway Express Company of 46 th Street, New York were used as a front for the purchase of guns sold by G.G.Rorke for in April, May and June some 306 were ‘shipped’ there. A definite IRA purchase.

Milton Kohn Export Corporation on Panama Railroad & Steamship Company of New York were shipped 29 guns. Moore-Handley of Birmingham Alabama were shipped 16 guns. Logan Hardware & Supply of Logan, West Virginia were shipped 5 guns. W.S.Brown, 523 Wood Street, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania was shipped 7 guns. Gentry of New York was shipped 50 guns. A definite IRA purchase.

Thomas F Ryan, 3 East 67 th Street, New York was shipped 2 guns. The senior Director of Auto-Ordnance. Morgan, Salesman for Auto-Ordnance Was consigned during April guns #69, #75 and #66 – the latter now with Bapty & Co.

London, movie prop business. Captain Geo T.Wise, Washingtom DC was shipped 7 guns. Serial numbers 42 and 43 were shipped on 24 th March in his name and with connection “USMC Navy Order”. From the Auto-Ordnance very first shipping chart week ending 9 th April 1921, the third line records the sale of two guns #42 and #43 dated 24 th March 1921 destination Capt G.T.

Wise C/o Frank Ochsenreiter of Washington. The order had been pre-paid. With the order came 10 (XX) magazine, 4 (L) drums, 2 (C ) drums, 2 webbing gun cases, 6 webbing magazine cases, 1 handbook. Ochsenreiter was a salesman colleague of George Rorke and fellow member of the Friends for Irish Freedom. He worked for another of Fortune Ryan’s companies at the time. Interstingly gun #811 sold to Geo.Wise was captured by the Royal Ulster Constabulary in Northern Ireland in an IRA arms dump.

Captain H.B.C. Pollard, London England was shipped 14 guns – four on 26 th April plus 10 on 5 th May. The Captain, Hugh Bertie Campbell Pollard, was born 6 th January 1888, served as an Officer in WW1 in Intelligence, and in 1920 was appointed as an Intelligence officer on the Staff of the Chief of Police Ireland. He was an authority in modern and ancient firearms and had written several notable books (The Story of Ypres in 1917, The Book of the Pistol and Revolver in 1917, Automatic Pistols in 1921 and Secret Societies of Ireland in 1922).

He was a journalist for the Daily Express from 1912.During WW1 he was on the Staff Intelligence Directorate at the War Office and then was listed at the Irish Office 1920-1922 based at Dublin Castle. His title was Press Officer with Police Authority Information Section. He was instrumental in putting the British side during the propaganda was with the IRA and would have been under the threat of assassination by the IRA during his Irish stay. During 1936 he was personally involved in the Spanish Civil War by flying Franco to Spain. During WW2 Pollard served as a British M16 officer. In his work “Secret Societies of Ireland” published in July 1922 fresh from his stint as Press Officer in Dublin Castle, he made reference on several pages to the Thompson gun in Ireland. He described it as “no longer than a carbine, and weighing only 8lbs, is to all effects a short range machine gun, capable of firing one thousand rounds a minute.

It is extremely portable and very easily concealed”. He refered to the capture by the British of IRA documents in May 1921 outlining the deployment of the gun around Ireland and identifying of targets.He recorded that the British had been interested in the gun too and had confronted John Thompson and manager Morgan when they were in Britain demonstrating the gun.The two denied all knowledge of the Irish shipment and as a result the interest was dropped.He said that it was the British who blew the whistle on the East Side shipment.He was aware that serial numbers could be traced. Of the 600 purchased, only 495 were seized on the ship, the balance he wrote, had made their way to Ireland before and after the July 1921 Truce.

Several times Pollard wrote that the first use of the Thompson Gun in Ireland was during the IRA burning of the Customs House in Dublin on 25 th May 1921 which resulted in large scale capture of IRA men and materials. He said the gun ‘jammed badly and inflicted no casualties on the police engaged’. The IRA records do not support this assertion. This was an ingenious cover for IRA purchases. In police arms seizures back in Ireland, two guns shipped to H.D. Folsom Arms Company of New York turned up, one shipped to Watson Hardware & Company of Ashland Kentucky, one shipped to State Police Hartford Connecticut. 29 from the first 100 produced were sold to the IRA.

The following figures cannot be exact as dates shipped overlapped different months; April 1921 –96 manufactured numbered 41 to 136 (28 shipped to IRA agents) May 1921 – 707 manufactured numbered 137 to 843 (413 shipped to IRA agents) June 1921 – 1480 manufactured numbered 844 to 2323 (96 shipped to IRA agents) Thompson gun serial no.1117 was the last recorded gun shipped with IRA connections on 6 th June 1921. Two serial numbers 701 and 901 were recorded as being on the East Side seizure.

Some 55% of the first two months production went to the IRA. Hemmingway’s novel “ To Have and Have Not” carries in its Penguin edition a jacket picture of Thompson serial no. This gun was shipped on 11 th April 1921 and “taken abroad with Morgan” (Auto-Ordnance salesman) and is now with film prop company Bapty’s & Co. Interarmco in the US bought up a batch of Irish Thompsons in 1957. Hundreds of Model of 1921 guns have been seized by both the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) in N.Ireland, the Garda in Eire and the British police in Great Britain – all originating from the East Side cache.

Some have had legible serial numbers while others have had their numbers defaced. Guns still remain in concealed arms caches to this day. From 1922 to today, the RUC reported 61 guns seized in arms finds of which 21 serial numbers were recorded and of these 15 were from East Side.

One gun is RUC hands was #811, shipped to George T Wise, Auto-Ordnance salesman on 10 th June 1921. During period 1935 to 1981, the Garda seized 227 Thompson guns of which 40 carried legible serials. Of these 29 were East Side traceable. Interesting serials captured from the IRA in Ireland included #372 shipped to Connecticut State Police, #722 shipped to Folsom Arms Company of New York, #894 shipped to Watson Hardware Company of Ashland Kentucky. Defacing serial numbers was common as 395 out of the 495 guns found on the East Side were obliterated.

There is even an IRA Thompson in a Museum in Norway. The Irish Free State Army from 1922 used Thompsons until the 1950’s.These were sold off to foreign collectors at that time.records not kept.The guns were sold to Interarmco (Interarms) in the US. Interestingly during 1923 after the devisive Civil War the Free State army held 20 Thompsons while the IRA held estimated 60 guns. Mikes Machine guns fine website records Irish Thompsons serial no.’s 389, 586, 708 and 993 are in a collection in New Zealand. An analysis of the serial numbers for which records were kept and retrieved for the first 1000 guns thanks to the East Side case where they were used in court. 1921 Dates recorded / dates shipped March April May June Guns 6 112 590 1451 1921 Purchasers PJ Gentry G.G.

Rorke A.R.E.Co Wise details none Guns 46 184 306 1 104 Serial 811 shipped 10 th June 1921 was consigned to a George T Wise of Washington DC – this weapon was captured by the Royal Ulster Constabulary years later. I have been able to track down serial numbers and locations as per chart below. As expected, Museums in Ireland north and south have plenty of examples.

Interesting to note that Imperial War Museum London (thanks to Paul Cornish) has two and that serial no. 383 has a defaced number on frame. Also the two guns in National Firearms Centre (formerly Pattern Room) have their serial numbers defaced. This defacing was refered to in court during the East Side trial. During the 1950’s captured weapons were sold off to the collectors market. Hundreds of Thompson guns have been captured by the Irish police, British Army, and Royal Ulster Constabulary in arms seizures from 1921 to 1981.

Many of these were destroyed under the law. Current Location Serial number Date shipped Sold to Consigned to Collins Barracks Dublin 847 American Rail Express Co.

NY G.G.Rorke Collins Barracks Dublin 815 G.G.Rorke RUC Museum Belfast 301 Auto-Ordnance NY G.G.Rorke RUC Museum Belfast 719 American Rail Express Co. NY G.G.Rorke RUC Museum Belfast 460 American Rail Express Co. NY G.G.Rorke RUC Museum Belfast 876 American Rail Express Co. NY G.G.Rorke RUC Museum Belfast 925 American Rail Express Co. NY G.G.Rorke Irish Army Barracks Museum 832 American Rail Express Co. NY G.G.Rorke Kilmainham Gaol Dublin 232 Kilmainham Gaol Dublin 1083 British Army Warminster 482 American Rail Express Co. NY G.G.Rorke Wexford Museum Enniscorthy 1080 American Rail Express Co., NY G.G.Rorke Imperial war Museum London 383 Imperial war Museum London 880 Military College Curragh 914 National Firearms Centre Leeds erased National Firearms Centre Leeds erased New Zealand 630 P.J.

Gentry, NY New Zealand 389 American Rail Express Co.,NY G.G.Rorke New Zealand 586 American Rail Express Co.,NY G.G.Rorke New Zealand 708 American Rail Express Co.,NY G.G.Rorke New Zealand 993 American Rail Express Co.,NY G.G.Rorke.